blackdragons10:

what you describe with the island example is the perfect utopien society. However, my example of too many head chefs and not enough cooks hold true as well. Your stating that given this exsistance pay people would simply just strive to do more. but your assuming that componies will motivate them sufficiently to work. People do not need to be motivated to work. Most people want to do something and that will never change. As I said before Painters will paint, inventors will invent it is what we do. If we are not forced to work to survive you would be free to pursue activities that have value to you. Yes it will make it difficult to find people to make useless junk, that I think is a good thing. Yes we will have to pay people more to things like pick up the trash and clean toilets and all the Dirty Jobs, but on the other hand, activities that provide no value, like Stock Broker, will pay way less than they do now. I argue that the idea that man must be forced like a donkey to do any work is just false. The basic purpose of a basic government is to maintain order through out the "island" the people surrender a few rights to have the order of a community. Actually the basic government purpose is to uphold Property Rights. What you say is that we are now forced to work to survive? You would have to work to survive anyways even without government to prevent the acts of desperation. That is true only if we have Property Rights. Without Property rights we go back to living as our ancestors. We follow game and do farming as needed. Yes this is work but if you disagree with the group you can just leave and make it on your own somewhere else. With property rights there is no longer somewhere else...every bit of land is already owned by someone else. If you see an apple and try to pick it you might get shot. So property rights limit our freedom to access to two of lifes most needed supplies, food and water. Property rights take away our access to food and water and it is that infringement on our rights that I propose we are paid for. This payment is in exchange for our restriction to these necessities. There would not be major chaos as you state because we tend to form small groups of like minded individuals without property rights. Yes there is fighting between these groups. But let us take the Native Americans as an example. When we arrived in America the Average Native American only had to spend 4 hours per day to provide for thier needs they lived a mostly peaceful existence. How many hours day do we work now? A phrase I use is that a perfect world inheirently brings chaos. A perfect world. There is no such thing as a perfect World, it is simply impossible. Man is not perfect and therefore could never produce perfection. We are all different and therefore we can not create a system that will work everyone. It is impossible. The best that we can hope for is near perfection. But let us think about what a perfect world might have. Fairness Freedom stability sustainability peace Could we create a system that makes these things more achievable. I think we can all agree that yes we can do much better at this than we are now. Our system (semi-free market Capitalist/Socialist) is grossly inefficient, desperately unfair, and completely unsustainable. We claim to be the leader of the Free world and yet we have the Highest rate of incarceration. We call places like Iran and N. Korea evil and yet we jail way more of our fellow citizens than they do. We kill way more of our citizens fighting drugs than either of these countries do being "evil" to thier citizens. We attack foriegn Sovereign countries without provocation (pakistan, Somalia). We scammed the whole damn world into buying our Derivative crap and tanked the Entire World Economy...I could go on and on...Our system sucks, it is in desperate need of replacement. Absolute perfection will be the most chaotic thing you will ever see 10 fold. History says otherwise. Many many more people have died since the establishment of Property Rights than there was killed before property rights...millions died in WW1.. Forget my rambing though. It doesnt get of the ground if you cant tell me how you plan to pay for it.

blackdragons10:

Im fully aware a perfect wold does not exsist. Most people do want to do something but its something they like. I dont have kids at my age thank god but I still remember that not to long ago the work i needed to do and the work i wanted to do were not exacty the same thing. :)...Why was that? Was it because of Education or what?............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Now the thought that you dont have to work if we didnt have property rights confuses me........I understand BD....I am still working on the details of how this might work. it, of course, works out to be a tax on Production and/or Income. This "Existence Payment" is for allowing people to own property. You might say it is Tax on Capitalism. You see without property rights you can pick an Apple anywhere it grows because it belongs to you as much as it does to anyone else, we all have equal right to all of Earth and its Minerals, etc., in exchange for allowing people to tell us that we CAN NOT pick that apple right in front of us, even though we are hungry, we are paid enough to buy an apple. I believe that this is exactly what our founders were talking about when they said we had an Inalienable Right to LIFE. I believe they were saying that no other person could restrict you from the necessities of life. Without capitalism I would eat the apple and Live. Under Capitalism if I have no money I starve to death while the other man watches the fruit rot on the tree. All because I allowed him to restrict my access to food, I allowed him to have property rights, without compensating me for restricting my access.....I hope this helped, This is my Basic argument for this whole idea...It is not payment for nothing...It is Payment for restricting our Access. This is why Property is Theft...We are being Robbed of our Right to Access...Our Right to LIfe..................................................... But i guess you could equate to that every past civilization ahs had some form of property rights which in turn leads to work....Great thinking...That all depends what you mean by Property Rights...Many tribal system, Like many Native American tribes, did not believe in Property Rights per se. They believed that no person could own the land, you could use it, but not own it. They did defend the areas they were using to support their communty, but did not believe people could own land. Of course these things changed once we got here.....By Property we are only talking of Land...Not Possessions, which are things like your clothes, TV, Car etc....There are even societies that you can even own possesions....Everyone owns everything...But I don't go that far.....Our system, which we have spread around the entire world, making our former lifestyle impossible, because we need access to survive. Capitalism, and the Fences that go with it make it impossible for us to live as we once did...On our own...without money....Hunting, Gathering, Farming....Moving as needed to keep safe and fed....Capitalism has taken away our Right to live like that, and that is what we must be paid for...............I think maybe we must define "work". Just what do you mean by work. To me work is the application of a persons time, labor, or energy to benefit the community. Be Honest with yourself...If you won 50 Million tommorrow, what would you do? Would you quit your job, schooling and go home and get in bed and have Pizza delivered the rest of your life?....I doubt it...I think most of us would create....Most of us would want to do something....Most of us would want a New Home, maybe a car, maybe start a business or buy one, or maybe play the markets....The point is we Work...We do things...You do not have to force us.................... now these acts of desperation i assume are because of lack of money. The only way to get around this is to have a eutopian no money system or less government taxes/ penalties. Would that not be correct?.......That might be correct, Humanity is still trying to figure this out.....We have tried many things and have not yet found a system that works for all of society....Corruption for Power and or Money always corrupt every system we have tried....I believe this is because everything we have tried have been Top Down systems that concentrate power into the Hands of just a small portion of Society....I do not attempt to correct that with this plan....While I do intend that we try to reduce the corruption by reducing the influence of Money on Politics by changing the way we pay our politicians...Politicians should be paid the Average salary for the District they represent, with absolutely no outside gifts or donations what so ever. I do not see any Workable "Utopian" model yet. Capitalism is what we are doing...Everybody is on board on...So I think we just have to keep riding this thing until we can figure out a better way....This idea is simply a to maybe make Capitalism work better...I say work better because it will. By making this change we empower the Worker in the whole production process...You no longer will be able to FORCE people to do things that they do not want to do....You will have to make it worth while to them........This will mean that your opinion on how to do your job better suddenly is important...it the employee is suddenly the Most important thing necessary for production...and the worse the job the better they will have to be treated....This will just have dramatic effects on everything... We know what the ideal system would be but since that is likly not going to happen you can either highly regulate or loosely regulate. yes?.........BD..You say we know what the ideal system would be?......Please Describe the Ideal System....I would love to here your description?.......   I read the second part of your msg. I agree with the need of change but the system it self really doesnt need to be changed on principal. its the angle in which power is held yes..........No BD....I do believe that the system needs to eventually be changed on Principle. We need to find a system that is not Top Down....Some day...Until then I see no alternative but to try to make our system one that gives back our freedom by paying us for our loss of right to access....We still have the same society...Capitalism except under this plan it will actually being a more true capitalist society because we no longer are making decisions under duress. With the Existence Payment people will be paid for the Effort they put into something...They will be paid for doing what others did not want to do...For instance finding someone to dump nuclear waste into the river will be very difficult...To find someone to do it, would be cost prohibitive... Now I know that we all would like to not work and do all the stuff you say,..........I disagree with this statement. I am not saying we do not want to work.....Exactly the opposite....I am saying WE DO WANT TO WORK....I am saying we do not have to be forced to work!....I personally have a Giant list of things I would like to work on...I hope I live long enough........ but the system from the dawn of time is that some form of work is neccassary. I would not be opposed to a World wide rework that you say, but much like all humans Id hope that my needs are met in a timly and ufficient manner. I just dont think a eutopian society can do it. Property rights have killed people but in a perfect world every gets what they want? Yes?

blackdragons10:

Well the "utopian society" is that all needs arre met. however it is only in theory as people "need" different things in different amounts and who provides them with that? and if the community pool runs short then you get lawlessness yes? In theory its needs are met and all people are happy i gues? (Seti posts something about how we rank below socialist coutnries but wont admit he/she wants socialism) not a clear explanation but there you go. The big flaw is how do you provide for it. A shortage and you get stallin sized famine. is that not correct?

blackdragons10:

i am starting to get my head around the property rights idea. but the other options are useless unless you find a sustainable way to pay for it. or find a worldwide moneyless system. which id think would be borderline impossible. You sort of have my idea of what i feel is the utopian so my question. What is your solution? the solution needed must make people more satisfied then the current capitolistic model. A worker can go to work and recieve fair wage yet a buisness owner can still make money. What solution  can accomplish both of those? I do understand that workers need a fair pay and im not going to state my opinion on unions as i dont have the experince too but i also feel for the legitimate business owners who make money then avarage are being told that they are "obligated" to pay more.  I personally want to see just one billionare come out and say something to the effect of "I earned my money, im just like a normal person and i dont feel obligated to pay more then what you impose on me for taxes" you put enought strain on business owners and they have to make ends meet. its not always to maintain profits it may be simply just to make ends meet.

blackdragons10:

cant believe i may be advocating communism. Im not a great creative mind. Im more of a step 2 kind of person who finds ways to put the plan to action